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  1. #11
    Level 7: Distinguished Contributor Dalinar is on a distinguished road Dalinar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardoperezc View Post
    The first turn is important but I find more important the initial automatic deployment of troops. I have no problem with going 2nd and it is possible to change the tide or that your rival's first turn is not too good.

    But for example yesterday my rival began first with all oceania but one territory, surrounded by a barrier of 6 troops in Antarctica and Asia, and I hadn't good options anywhere.

    Of course in the games that I have that kind of advantage I don't complain, but the result is fixed from the beginning. So if we talk about making the 1vs1 fairer I think we should talk about that, not only turns.
    I think this is actually an argument in favor of the betting rather than my preference - if the first turn is worth more to you because of the positioning you could bet more (e.g. getting close to Oceania is critical and might split him between pushing you back and completing the command).

  2. #12
    Studio Production Manager Shepherd is a name known to all Shepherd is a name known to all Shepherd is a name known to all Shepherd is a name known to all Shepherd's Avatar
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    I've long advocated to change the rules so that the player with the first turn gets to place troops but NOT attack. In this way Player 1 doesn't get an advantage because the turn is defensive only - no grabbing easy targets and getting the first card. Meanwhile, Player 2's first attack advantage is mitigated somewhat by the extra troops that have already been placed strategically on the board.

    I'm not sure which player I'd rather be, which to me says it's somewhat even. It doesn't require any additional shenanigans that delay the start of the game.
    When sorrows come they come not in single spies, but in battalions.

  3. #13
    Level 11: Commanding General of Everything. Don't ask, just listen. I'm at 11. Bluebonnet commands your respect Bluebonnet commands your respect Bluebonnet's Avatar
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    I kinda like it the way it is. I figure if you play enough games you eventually climb.

    So as not to throw out the sink with the dirty water though. Jskye has some great stats from his 1v1 tournaments that give great insight into first turn advantage. Maybe do some practice runs before full implementation to see if the results deliver what was expected.

  4. #14
    Level 7: Distinguished Contributor Dalinar is on a distinguished road Dalinar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
    I've long advocated to change the rules so that the player with the first turn gets to place troops but NOT attack. In this way Player 1 doesn't get an advantage because the turn is defensive only - no grabbing easy targets and getting the first card. Meanwhile, Player 2's first attack advantage is mitigated somewhat by the extra troops that have already been placed strategically on the board.

    I'm not sure which player I'd rather be, which to me says it's somewhat even. It doesn't require any additional shenanigans that delay the start of the game.
    I did test this quite a bit with friendly games against Th-child, namelochil, and Elmer and the conclusion I reached (and I believe they'd agree) was that the full deploy still gave the first player a bit of advantage. We cut that to half rounded up, and I think that was adequate. I tried to make game notes so I could use them as data later on, but I forget if I specified whether they were deploy full or half - I might try and sift through them at some point, but there's a lot of stuff to account for before reaching any solid conclusions.

    And good point Ivan, I'd just add that you have to be careful with the analysis. As I recall, some said smaller maps looked fairer because the first turn win rate is closer to 50%, but that might because dice, card luck, and the drop matter more. If, for example, the win rate of 4000 players vs 2000 players on the map was also closer to 50% it would probably just suggest the game was mostly luck (just not about who goes first). But you probably know that you have some stats background as I recall

  5. #15
    Level 6: Prominent Opinion TormentaBANNED is on a distinguished road TormentaBANNED's Avatar
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    I think this is actually an argument in favor of the betting rather than my preference - if the first turn is worth more to you because of the positioning you could bet more (e.g. getting close to Oceania is critical and might split him between pushing you back and completing the command).
    Yes of course the first turn reinforces that superiority. What I meant is that the main question is the situation of the troops, more than the turns.

    I think that the easiest solution would be to have an option where you decide the initial deployment, as in the original game.

    So the first player chooses a country to begin in, the second chooses another, until the map is complete.

    That is strategy too, you reduce the influence of luck and it is easy to understand for everybody who has played risk before.

    The disadvantage would be that games would be slower because you add the initial turns, but maybe in the biggest maps you could place troops in more than one country each turn.

  6. #16
    Level 3: Occasional Commentator chacha75 is on a distinguished road chacha75's Avatar
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    @Eduardo: Entirely second your point of view on that.

  7. #17
    Level 7: Distinguished Contributor Dalinar is on a distinguished road Dalinar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardoperezc View Post
    Yes of course the first turn reinforces that superiority. What I meant is that the main question is the situation of the troops, more than the turns.

    I think that the easiest solution would be to have an option where you decide the initial deployment, as in the original game.

    So the first player chooses a country to begin in, the second chooses another, until the map is complete.

    That is strategy too, you reduce the influence of luck and it is easy to understand for everybody who has played risk before.

    The disadvantage would be that games would be slower because you add the initial turns, but maybe in the biggest maps you could place troops in more than one country each turn.
    I have to disagree on the importance of positioning vs going first - there's a lot of data showing the first player may win somewhere around 70% of the time given equal opponents. The positions are important of course and can decide the game, but going first almost always gives you an advantage in deploy and on cards that can snowball through the game. If position were that important (and it is independent of going first), it'd push win rates closer to 50/50.

    Regardless... I'd love the option to choose your positions. Whatever the issues are, that would replace a lot of luck with strategy.
    Last edited by Dalinar; 09-02-2016 at 09:39 AM.

  8. #18
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    i think fox mulder once said: australia is the key to world dominion.
    being able to place your troops one after the other might yet again create an advantage for players more familiar with the maps.
    so i guess i ultimately like the element of luck or misfortune a random drop creates, evens the playing fields somewhat, though admittedly sometimes rather annoyingly.
    i have played another online risk iteration, and - while this may be due to the map they use being less complex - the same moves get repeated almost every single game: player a places 1 on australia, player b on south america, etc..
    though i have too wondered whether this could be a way to improve 1st turn advantage in 1vs1 here, i think i favor random drop: gives you sth you have to work with, or a problem to solve.
    & @ dalinar & shepherd: the idea of 1st turn deploy only sounds very reasonable to me, and if maybe not the ultimate solution, an improvement probably all the same. have never tried this though..

  9. #19
    Level 6: Prominent Opinion smi is on a distinguished road smi's Avatar
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    I don't get why its a bad thing to give an advantage to players with better math knowledge or with better map knowledge...

    its the reason why we play risk and not just play coin flippping...

  10. #20
    Level 11: Commanding General of Everything. Don't ask, just listen. I'm at 11. ndrm31 commands your respect ndrm31 commands your respect ndrm31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
    I've long advocated to change the rules so that the player with the first turn gets to place troops but NOT attack. In this way Player 1 doesn't get an advantage because the turn is defensive only

    I'm not sure which player I'd rather be, which to me says it's somewhat even. It doesn't require any additional shenanigans that delay the start of the game.
    Some player (dalinar?) used to porpouse that at the start of the games
    Could that be implemented as a system fix update?
    NAMASTE

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